Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of TeachCast was recorded on the Homelands of the Dharug People. I'd like to pay respect to elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening to TeachCast today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to TeachCast. A podcast by teachers, for teachers. I'm Shannon and, I'm Siobhan.

Shannon:

Hi everyone. Welcome back to this episode of TeachCast. We are very excited because we are joined by a special guest today. But of course, as usual, you are joined by your hosts, myself, Shannon, and Siobhan is here with us today.

Siobhan:

And we're really excited to introduce to you today our special guest. You may know him from his famous YouTube channel, Mr. Wootube, but we know him as Eddie Woo, a mathematics expert and educational leader within the New South Wales Department of Education. Eddie has over 1 million YouTube subscribers on his channel and splits his time between providing curriculum support for the mathematics team within the Department of Education. Welcome to TeachCast Eddie.

Eddie:

Thanks Siobhan and Shannon and thanks for having me.

Shannon:

You're so welcome. I feel like we should cue the applause.

Eddie:

It's totally unnecessary. Kind of feels funny because, you know, no one gets into teaching to be well known or for acclaim, that kind of thing. We do it because we love the kids and it's sort of a delightful and charming thing that all of this kind of stuff that you've just referred to has happened along the side. I'm just very grateful.

Siobhan:

That's right. Well, of course, a little disclaimer, both of our mums know who you are, so I think you should be pretty chuffed with that.

Eddie:

Apparently for reasons I cannot fully comprehend, I'm really good with the over 60 female demographic, so thumbs up to them I guess.

Siobhan:

We love that. Well, I think we'll start by a little warm-up today just to welcome you to the couch, playing a little bit of this or that teacher edition. So we'll see what you think in response to the questions. Which is your preference, you might like both, you never know. Or you might have a little story attached to either one. So feel free to answer in any way you like. The first question, and it's not related to teaching, but do you keep your Vegemite in the fridge or the pantry?

Eddie:

This is a conversation of great consternation in my household. Across our family of five, there is significant disagreement about it. I grew up not knowing that some people refrigerate it and I just kept it in the cupboard. And then when I learned like it's a thing, you pop it in the fridge, I was like, but then when I'm putting it on my toast, it's like all hard and difficult, you know? So I'm a, I'm a pantry person for my Vegemite. It's very serious.

Siobhan:

Serious work. What are you?

Shannon:

I'm actually a fridge.

Siobhan:

Yeah, I'm a fridge as well, you're outnumbered today Eddie.

Eddie:

Yeah, I know. And my daughter would be very happy that you're on that side of the camp. Respect to that.

Shannon:

And we like to say to our TeachCast audience that it's, you know, it's a safe space for wherever you keep your condiments.

Siobhan:

Alright, next question and a bit more high school related. Period one, so first period of the day or last period of the day?

Eddie:

Really depends on what for. Cognitive science tells me that if I'm learning something super intense like differentiation, my first principle is period one is definitely the time to go for. But I will say that period six in general, I have more memorable stories, both as a student and as a teacher, from period six. I'll never forget that through years 9, 10, 11 and 12 I studied drama at school and often it was during the last periods of the day, certainly after lunch, and your brain is kind of done for the day, but there's a whole other part of you that comes alive when you're like, 'Alright, I'm on stage. I'm trying to inhabit a character', and those are some of the most memorable experiences I have from back when I was a kid. So I'm not supposed to stay on the fence, but I guess having just given that answer, yeah, let's go period six.

Siobhan:

Yeah, I like that.

Shannon:

I'm definitely a morning, first thing in the morning especially, I'm a primary school teacher, so I felt like my class was the most settled when they would come in in the morning. And I think, you know, that comes down to your routines that you put into place as well. But I would agree with you that I have the most stories in the back pocket from, my school did lunch at 11 a.m. and recess in the afternoon, so the shorter break in the afternoon, so the last period was also, they didn't have as much time running around on the playground when they'd come in, but they'd always have some lovely tales for me, which was lots of fun.

Siobhan:

I think the best answer I can give to that question is do you know what the room smells like in the last period of the day? With the kids, fresh off the playground.

Eddie:

I mean. I teach adolescent boys, right? So if we're talking about smell, I mean now that you specify like, okay, okay, definitely the earlier, the better. Though it's kind of you know, I think when you mention period one, period six, my brain also goes to period zero and period seven and I've taught both of those having taken like mathematics extension subjects which often fall outside the timetable and you know, they each have their charming things. But you know, when it's the dead of winter, when it is dark, when you're walking in at 7:30, which is when period zero starts at my school, there's there's that challenge versus I know there's something emotional and sharp that that gets touched inside your soul when you're watching all of your friends walk home and catch buses and you're like, I'm still here for another hour and a half.

Siobhan:

Bye everyone.

Eddie:

Yeah, that's right. It was good knowing you, so long.

Siobhan:

We love that. What about canteen duty or bus duty?

Eddie:

I actually will start this answer by saying yes. Because I actually love playground duty of all kinds. I remember when I was an early career teacher just like surveying other teachers and their own attitudes to different parts of the job. And it seemed to me that most of them weren't huge fans of playground duty. But I love being able to interact with my students in a whole different environment, with different expectations. I love the different kinds of conversations you can have with kids.

Shannon:

You see them in a different light.

Eddie:

Oh 100% right. So overall I'm like, I'll take any of them. I probably will say I reckon bus duty. You don't quite have to deal with the like the pushing in line and 'Hold on, stand back'.

Siobhan:

The hierarchy in the canteen line.

Eddie:

People want their food and their drinks, right. Like there's, you know, there's that element of hangryness, whereas like bus duty, it's the afternoon, it's, it's a carefree time. You just get to have a nice, relaxing chat with people as they're waiting for their bus.

Siobhan:

That's right.

Shannon:

I love that I've said this before on the podcast, but I'm a canteen girl. I'd love to know what everyone's purchasing. 'Morning, what are we getting?'

Siobhan:

And lucky last. Do you prefer to lead the meeting or take the minutes?

Eddie:

I'm a, I'm a minute-taker. In fact, one of the funny things is, my current role, I usually am the person who leads the meeting, but for two reasons I love taking minutes. Number one, I when I was younger, like seven or eight years old, I distinctly remember my mum saying to me, 'It's such a shame that you and your generation, you're not going to have good handwriting', like my mum's, you know, 45 or 50 years at this point. And she's very proud of, you know, having beautiful legible handwriting. And she said 'You guys, you're all just growing up on keyboards, It's not going to be the same for you'. And for some reason, seven or eight year old me just like drew a line in the sand and was like 'No, I will I will love and prize handwriting'. And whenever I take minutes, I do them by hand because I just kind of enjoy it. And there is also, for many teams that I've been a part of I love being the custodian of the quotable quote section of the minutes where someone says something that doesn't make it into the official minutes, but you're like 'No, no, no. We all need to remember that Shannon said this so we can have a laugh about it'. So yeah, that's what I love doing.

Shannon:

We might get Eddie's help writing the notes under this podcast.

Eddie:

Sure, sure.

Siobhan:

Yeah. I think I'm a minute-taker, only because that helps me stay present within the meeting. I feel like especially if it's happening in the afternoon, your brain can go elsewhere. So I always volunteer to take the minutes if I can, just so I can be present in the room and actually hear what's going on.

Eddie:

I definitely think by writing, like I'm a I'm a verbal processor and for the benefit of people rather than just talking it all out, I do like to actually write for myself and it helps me consolidate and clear up what I'm thinking.

Shannon:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for sharing your 'teacher this or that' edition with some condiments thrown in there for good measure. We'd love to talk to you a little bit about, you've mentioned to Siobhan and I, off the podcast, about how, you know, teaching is so much more than just your love for your subject and how it's sort of bringing in the world around us for the students and making those connections. Love to, sort of, go through how you came to that stance on education.

Eddie:

I think where this story begins is, as with a lot of teachers, it's my own schooling experience and what learning means to me, right? So when I went through school, certainly as much as I love just learning within the classroom, I don't think I'm alone in that when I think back to my memories of school, I think of when I was running a drama production or when as a school prefect we were doing a massive fundraiser and panicking that our jelly wasn't going to set for what we're going to sell. Or when I was an Army cadet and we were, you know, march around the playground getting ready for Anzac Day or I was, in fact helping, you know, say, a younger recruit, learn how to pitch their tent, which was actually where I first discovered that I love to help other people learn. And that's really satisfying and gratifying to me, and that's kind of one of the major things that set me on the path to becoming a teacher myself. And so from all of those experiences, if you put them all together, that's kind of made it self-evident to me that learning isn't just in the classroom and even the learning in the classroom is better and richer and deeper for all the other things and the threads that you can draw to it that attach to it. Not to mention the fact that, like I frequently get asked the question like, 'When am I ever going to have to use this stuff', your trigonometry, algebra, whatever it is, 'in real life?' And my answer to that is always to draw threads back to part of a student's daily experience that is built on the foundation of what I'm teaching them in a day-to-day classroom environment.

Siobhan:

I like that. Do you have any examples of perhaps there are aspiring maths teachers or current, you know, beginning mathematics teachers who are getting that common, 'I'm bored. This is boring. What's the point?' Do you have any sort of advice to them on how to really help the student connect the learning of the concept of mathematics to their broader world and understanding? It's a complex question that obviously you can't answer in such a short amount of time.

Eddie:

It is Siobhan. But I love the question actually so much, which is why I'm kind of pausing on it because what I think's so delightful about your question is that it sort of balls together, you know, when I think about the Australian Professional Standards for Teachers, I'm convinced, I'm persuaded there's a reason why number one is number one, and number two is number two. And they're at the start, right?

If you want to know content and how to teach it, which is number two, you have to know students and how they learn. And I'd add to that, know your students. So to all of those people who you identified before Siobhan, listening out there, I would say like your kids, that's your core business, right? Teaching is about students before it's about syllabuses. And so, you know, this goes back to our comment about playground duty and not just playground duty. It's about coaching sport or being, you know, seeing students perform in a musical ensemble or a solo performance, you know, of a school evening and seeing that different side of a kid. All of that is what feeds into when that question comes to me in the classroom, in the lesson, I'm not just answering it from the point of view of, okay, here's what the syllabus dot point says, or here's the rest of my knowledge. It's how I, how to relate it to this child. What's that dynamic between the two of us? What kind of direction will I take the conversation? Will I, will I talk to them about, because I know that I know that Sophie wants to be a pastry chef and is going to get on an apprenticeship as quickly as she can, maybe somewhere through year 11, she's going to do TAFE courses and I'm going to say, okay, this connects to your understanding of proportion when you're looking at a recipe and you're trying to think about, 'Wow, I have 450 people I'm gonna have to cater for, how am I going to work out how this scales up right?' And obviously that answer that I give to Sophie is very different to an answer to give to a different student based on what their interests are and what they care about.

Shannon:

Yeah, that's fantastic. I think if I think back to myself as a beginning teacher, I used to do parent teacher interviews at the end of term one, and in my very early years I was always quite worried, you know, Do I know my students well enough? Like, do I, do I really know them? And when you sit down with a student's parents and you actually run through all the wonderful things that you've noticed, whether it be, you know, academically, but also personality wise as well and all their little traits that they have. I think there's nothing more rewarding as a teacher for parents to sit there and say, you know, 'Wow, you really know my child'. And it's such a special sort of like, we are so blessed to have that aspect of the students life that we get to sit with them for a year or however long that, you know, you follow them through school and have that insight into what they want to do and what they want to be and how we can use that in our classroom.

Eddie:

Shannon I think your choice of words is really delightful because special and blessed are exactly like I'm thinking of the word privilege. I always like, I'm full of wonder at the fact that we get to have this very special opportunity, this unique opportunity, I would say, to be, you know, this adult presence in a child's life that's different to their parents. And I want to say, I mean, I'm biased, obviously, but in a secondary context, you know, often these young adults are growing up. And even though their parents are so important, and whichever older people in their own family context, are super important to them sometimes, certainly if me as a 16 year old has any indication at all, like parents are the last person you really want to pay like

Siobhan:

Confide in.

Eddie:

Yeah, that's right. Even if they say something that's right, you're like, 'I'm not going to admit it to you though'.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Eddie:

Whereas as teachers, yeah, we get to see our students day in, day out over the course of years. I love the transformation you can see in a child from where I get to see them ages 12 to 18, like it's sometimes almost unrecognisable. Except for the fact you're like, 'Yeah. James you used to be like, your email address in year seven was annoying_guy2@yahoo.com. And now look at you. I am so proud to have played a small part in the in the young man who you are now going out into the world'. That's amazing to me.

Siobhan:

So yeah and actually a common question that I get asked because we go out to a lot of events just even with the general public, so people who have never had actually thought about becoming a teacher. And one question I always get asked is 'What's the thing that surprises you the most about teaching?'

And I think it's just that. I obviously expected the connections to gain to gain that connection with the students. But the one thing that surprised me the most was how important of a role you play in their life. And that's a massive privilege, but also like a big expectation that you have to fulfill.

So I think that that's something that people should be prepared for and consider when going into teaching because, yeah, it is going back to it's more than just a love for your subject. You know, I could be great at writing an essay, but can I relate to the student who doesn't know how to write an essay and get them to the point where they're writing a sentence, then they're writing a paragraph and then adding a topic sentence, and then they're putting evidence into their work, like, how do I motivate and inspire them to do that? And I think it's at that core relating to them and finding what they like and how you can. Get to know them. Yeah, and how you can make the work relevant to them and like even set little goals for them that they can tick off. And, you know, I think that my answer always to that question is I think it's the connection that I was the most surprised about. Obviously, I knew it was going to happen, but the depth, I suppose, I think that people really need to consider. I'd be interested to hear from both of you what is the most surprising thing about teaching that you experienced in your career?

Eddie:

I feel like, you know, you here telling that story Siobhan of how you share that with people who are considering the profession reminds me of the fact that I, as part of my role outside of the department, I actually also work at the University of Sydney. I work there part-time to train pre-service teachers, and that's a huge privilege and I love that, like that's where I studied to become a teacher, so there's kind of this weird, you know, like full-circle thing, which is really delightful. But I know that the story you just shared reminds me of, you know, I sometimes get to talk to pre-service teachers when they're finished their first prac, which is a really emotional experience, right? Like it's it's quite intimidating, you know, you're excited about it, but then you're like, whoa, this responsibility, this weighty burden is on my shoulders. And, you know, I remember hearing when I was pre-service teacher. It's like, it might be your first time, but for the kids, it's their only time. So do not mess with this opportunity and pour your heart into it, right? And I remember one of my, one of my pre-service teachers who I was mentoring through the placement experience, she said to me almost word for word what you said. She's like, 'I knew that the connection with students was going to matter, but I did not count on'. And she was telling this wonderful story of a student who had not done as well as he wanted to on this particular assessment task. But she sat beside him in reviewing his work and said, 'Hey, you know what? Like there's a few questions here where, you know, you have you actually, I can see your thinking in this. I reckon we might be able to go to the teacher and we might be able to say, I think this is against the marking rubric worth a mark or two more'. And even though if you just looked at it objectively, you wouldn't have said like, 'That's an amazing result'. That little interaction meant so much to that young man and this pre-service teacher's relating to me, she said, 'I didn't, I would never have believed until I experienced it myself how much that would hit me and how moved I was just to be able to help lift the student's concept of himself and to play a really important role in that'. So that was surprising to her. I don't know what you're thinking, Shannon?

Shannon:

I'm just thinking of that student and, you know, sitting in their shoes like to feel so, you know, seen and valued by that pre-service teacher. I feel like it's just such a, again, special thing. I think for me with teaching, I wasn't prepared for how much those little people, how much of your heart you give to them and how every year you think, I don't know if I can fit any more, little people in my heart. But you, seeing them grow up and I had a year one cohort a few years ago, and they graduated year six last year. So I went to their graduation and I think that was a really special moment for me because some of those students like we started day one learning to read, almost starting to, you know, write their name.

They went from writing sentences to writing, you know, huge stories. And to now see them going off to high school, I think that is just so like that was the epitome of teaching for me and being on that journey with them. And no matter what year you teach the years that they go through school, like those interactions that they come up to the playground and they have special memories with you from your class. They say, 'Remember when I was in 1B and we did this art activity' and you're like, my goodness, like that art activity that I put, you know, time and energy into that stuck with that student all the way through. And I think that is just so rewarding to have that impact on their lives.

Siobhan:

That, yeah, their eyes even light up when you haven't seen them after a while. Like so perhaps you've moved schools or whatever and they say, 'Hi miss, how are you?' And you address them by name like 'Hi Eddie', and they go 'You remember my name?' 'Of course I remember your name',

Yeah, there's space in my brain for you, and then also in your heart, right? Like as cliche as it sounds, it's so true.

Shannon:

I've gone the wholesome route.

Siobhan:

Yeah, wholesome route.

Shannon:

It reminds me, actually, now that we talk about this, it reminds me of a time Siobhan and I were at Sydney University again, presenting to a cohort of pre-service teachers, and we bumped into one of Siobhan's old students.

Siobhan:

Hi Morgan.

Shannon:

And I sat back and listened to the conversation he was studying, what was he doing? Chemical engineering? And just, you know, he was so proud to have bumped into Ms Rossenrode

And I was like, just, yeah, it was lovely to watch that interaction, and it's so true, the connection just follows through.

Siobhan:

He was tall, he had been to Europe and Japan and was planning a trip to America.

Shannon:

He was a real grown up.

Siobhan:

And just all of these things that I sort of felt like, wow, I'm so proud and privileged to have taught you, and like, yeah, like you said, see you grow from a young boy into a young man and embark on your future. I mean, I've had students who are stars in Netflix shows, so it's like, wow, you know, you see them after school and in a new context and in a new light and you sort of say they might think that you forget them, but I'm like, 'Don't forget me, don't forget your year 12 English teacher'.

Eddie:

And, you know, like, I think it's also really important, like what's going in the back of my mind. So I've been teaching for a more than 15 years now. And, you know, I think this is something which is really important, like as I've matured, I guess to know that it works both ways, right? I remember hearing, but not appreciating back then in a full sense as an early career teacher, that the best thing about teaching is that it matters, right? All of these stories that we're sharing, the impact that it makes on students in a personal way that completely alters the trajectory of their life right. But the hardest thing about being a teacher is that it matters every day, like every little interaction that you have. You know, when you talk about bumping into a student after perhaps several years and almost without exception, if a student comes back to school or if I bump into them elsewhere, and they will bring back some memory of what time in my class or my touch football team or whatever it was, you know, their memory is, this is embarrassing to say, maybe it's just a reflection of my age, but it's not something that I distinctly like, specifically, remember having that conversation with you, but it had an enormous impact on them and it's kind of like, wow, every word that I say carries with it this this weight and this opportunity and I do I do think, like teaching is not for everyone.

Shannon:

I think that's really true. And there are tough days and you do need to go in with your eyes wide open. And I think what you spoke about professional placements, experience is such a valuable part of your initial teacher education degree and it is a time where you can jump in and make mistakes with the guidance of a supervisor, because once you've finished your degree and you're out there in a classroom, you know, with your class full-time or in whatever capacity that looks like for you, it's a very different situation. So it's a great time to try things and sort of test the waters, I suppose, and really see. I would say for me, your passion for education really shines through. And with someone who has so many years under your belt teaching in, you know, New South Wales public schools, what would you sort of say to beginning teachers now to to keep that passion alive and to keep that learning and the encouragement going?

Eddie:

I think the biggest answer to that question, Shannon, is what we've already been talking about, which is that students are at the heart. They never, you never grow beyond that. And, you know, going back to your question before, Siobhan, about what's surprising, I think the novelty of teaching every new cohort of students, you know, like I teach a timeless subject, Pythagoras' Theorem is as true today as it was centuries ago. And I've had friends who are not educators and they've said to me, 'Eddie doesn't it drive you mad? You know, you are teaching to the beat of the same bell and it's more or less the same syllabus over and over again, don't you get bored?' And I've always said, but I think I've struggled to convey in the fullest sense it's like, 'No, no. When you have that new group of personalities walk into that room at the start of every year.

Siobhan:

Completely different.

Eddie:

That's right. So, that's got to be the first and biggest answer, even though we've already talked about it. I will say in addition to that, you know, over the course of 15 years, I have loved that, it's not just that I love helping other people learn, but that I enjoy learning myself. I remember in, I want to say it was after my first month, of full-time work, and a friend of mine at church he said, 'Hey, man, I know you've just started up, how are you faring?' And I said to him in a kind of sleep-deprived daze, I said, 'I am exhausted, but I love this work and I'm really enjoying it. And I'm finding, you know, meaning and purpose in what I do', which is what everyone hopes for in their work, right? And he looked at me. He paused. Straight in the eye he said, 'I give you about three weeks'. And I was like, 'Hey, thanks for that, you know, upbeat'.

Siobhan:

Encouragement.

Eddie:

Yeah, exactly. And you know, I know what he was getting at because the realities of full-time work, especially when you can call this, you know, some dazzling family planning, if you like, or a brave navigation of, sorry a navigation of that fine line between bravery and stupidity. But my oldest child was born six months into my first year of work, so I had a little newborn at home. And yeah, I was tired, but I really did love it. And 15 years later, I actually think I've been discovering even more reasons to see the value and the dignity and importance of the work that I do. And it means that I'm solving different problems to what I started out with. I remember as a classroom teacher there are lots of things about what my work was at that time, which I just kind of took as a given. I'm like, this is what, this is what working in a school looks like. And then I realised, like the late Steve Jobs said that 'When you when you have that realisation that so much of what is around you, the way that we do things was made up by a person just like you, that frees you to say maybe we could do it differently. Maybe there's a better way'.

And I think because us as teachers, growth is a part and change is a part of our profession, because that's the premise that we encounter students in. Like I'm here to see not just you as you are, but who you can become and you growing into that. And I think we should apply that to our own work as well. And so as I have sort of molded from classroom teacher to a head teacher to someone who is now working across the system, who's working in universities and so on, I love that I've had the opportunity to expand my own knowledge and challenge myself with problems that are bigger than what I ever thought I could ever take on.

Shannon:

And it shows your students as well that lifelong learning, and how important that is. And I think like even when I would, as a classroom teacher, take on roles external to my classroom teaching job, you know, like extracurricular, for example, that showed my students that, hey, I might not be a dancer, which has come up on the podcast before. But you know what? I'm going to try because I know that the students in year five and six, they need a senior dance teacher right now. And you know what? They want to dance and they deserve to dance, and I'm going to give it a go.

Siobhan:

Let the kids dance.

Shannon:

Let them dance, and I'd be really open and honest about it and I'd be like, 'You know what, boys and girls? I'm nervous. I'm feeling a little bit nervous, but I'm going to try it'. And it's that whole lifelong learning. And when they see that as a role model, you know, I think that's really inspiring for them as well.

Eddie:

I think that so much of what I've realised as I've grown as a teacher is that, you know, being a great teacher is not about being the font of all knowledge. It's about, as you said, modelling what it looks like to be the lead learner in the classroom. And I love being able to embrace that and show that to the kids as well.

Siobhan:

You mentioned a lot of the roles that you've taken on throughout your career. I'd be interested to hear about how those opportunities came by for you. I feel like sometimes, did you work with a goal in mind? Like I would like to be a head teacher of mathematics, or did it sort of fall into your lap and that's where your journey took you? I'd be interested to hear. And even now, with the mathematics leadership and growth, I'd just be interested to hear how your career sort of progressed in that way and what that path looked like for you.

Eddie:

This is a dangerous question to ask Siobhan, because I'm pretty sure your podcast is less than 4 hours long, so I'll do my best.

Siobhan:

Can you summarise your 15-year career for me in 3 minutes? Go.

Shannon:

Start the timer.

Eddie:

I can answer the thrust of your question pretty quickly, which is to say that I would love to take credit for having had a strategic plan and mapping out my outcomes for the next 5 to 10 years and then just kind of taking the stepping stones toward that. I have friends who I deeply respect and colleagues who I deeply respect who have done exactly that. I haven't. I would say that two kinds of things have driven me in terms of moving forward. They've been the problems I've encountered and the opportunities that in in the vast majority of cases I've not gone looking for, but they've presented themselves. And I thought, okay, this is a risk, I'm going to give it a whirl, you know, because I've become more and more convinced the further I go through my career that if you wait until you're ready.

Siobhan:

You're never ready.

Eddie:

You will never, you'll never go.

Siobhan:

It applies to outside of your career, like.

Eddie:

100%. It's just, that's just life, right? And like it's, I'm pretty sure it's in, this this is going to out me a little bit as a total geek, in case that was in any doubt up until this point, but toward the end of Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, Miles Morales says to his mentor, you know, like, 'How will I know when I'm ready?' And Peter Parker says, 'You won't. You've got to take that leap of faith'. So, problems and opportunities, let's just talk about those, right? So I remember as a classroom teacher and I sort of referred to this just briefly before, I remember becoming dissatisfied with, huh, okay, I know that as a maths teacher, my students gain most of their concept about themselves, 'Like what kind of a maths student am I?', based on their big formal assessment tasks, their exams? And I realised after the hundred and fiftieth time that I wrote in a report comment, 'This result does not reflect Shannon's true ability in this subject. She is a creative and collaborative mathematician'.

Siobhan:

I feel like I had that exact same comment on my own maths report.

Eddie:

For sure, and I also, I also felt that myself, I am I sort of muddled my way through a lot of my own schooling. One of the problems was that, it sounds like such a stupid thing to admit, but I was in that generation where, when I was first learning to write, my teacher said to me, 'Okay, pick up a pencil and just hold it however you like, whatever way feels natural'. And I did not discover until my own children were learning to write that that way I learned to write was the wrong way and it just makes my hand automatically cramp any time I'm writing anything more than a paragraph. So I've always gone through exams and assessment tasks and not ever done as well as what I felt like I was actually capable of.

And as a teacher I started to realise, Wait a second, I, I'm the one creating the structures that students are entering into that give them a sense of, 'I passed this' or 'I did poorly' or whatever, right? And I thought, how do I change this? How do I do this? How do I craft assessments tasks for my students, given that this is so important to their concept of themselves that do a better job of highlighting their own strengths, pointing out their weaknesses so they can work on them, not so they can judge themselves, right? And I realised that a lot of that as a classroom teacher, I could do things in my own class, but I was like, no, the bigger stuff, the stuff that goes across the grade, I don't make decisions about that. That's at a level above me. And so I thought to myself, is there a way could I take on those skills in a way that I could have that impact across students? It would mean I'd have to take like a gentle step back. A head teacher in a secondary school teaches one less class than a normal classroom teacher. And I was like, is that a price that I'm willing to pay? And more and more, I thought.

Shannon:

To reach, a wider audience.

Eddie:

This is a problem worth solving, right? So that was kind of probably what launched myself into leadership for the first time. It was also the fact that, again, speaking of problems, it was my principal actually who pushed me, and she said to me, she actually brought an ad to me for a head teacher position at another school. And she said, 'Have you, have you considered something like this?' And I was like, 'I don't know. I don't know if I'm ready. I haven't had opportunities relieving as this, that and the other?' And she said to me, 'Eddie, if you don't go for this, do you know what will happen?' And I said, 'No, Meagan, but I think you're going to tell me'. And she said, 'Given what the landscape is like amongst people who are going for positions like this', this is like more than ten years ago, she said, 'Someone without your skills and expertise is going to go for this position. They'll get it. And the people who will suffer are the kids. You can do this job. I know you don't think that you can, but you can. You've still got a lot of growing to do. But it's time to put on your big boy pants and give it a go'. Right. Step onto that steep part of the learning curve again because you know I'd gotten to this point where as a classroom teacher I was like, cool, I know what I'm doing now. I feel comfortable not in a bored way, but in a

Shannon:

You found your feet.

Eddie:

Right. And I was like, 'Do I have to step away from this place of certainty?' And she said, in no uncertain terms, 'Yeah, you should. You have a, you actually have a moral responsibility for it, right’? So that was me sensing problems, realising okay, who's going to do something about this, looking around? And I'm like.

Siobhan:

'Oh wait, it's me'.

Shannon:

'It's me, tag you're it'.

Eddie:

And then the other one is opportunities, right? So, you know, feeding off of I mean, you mentioned it before in the introduction, I started a YouTube channel, 12 years ago now because there was a problem I wanted to solve, I had a student, he was unwell. He was being treated for cancer. So he was immune compromised. And I was like, how do I, how do I help him to keep up with learning with the rest of his peers in a way that was better than just like here's chapter five of the textbook.

Siobhan:

Teach yourself.

Eddie:

Yeah, exactly. That's where my YouTube channel was born. But that led to opportunities that I would never have dreamed of. You know, I remember when I got an email from a producer from the ABC who said, 'Would you like to be part of this episode of Playschool that's all about mathematics?' And like, I'm at the point now where I get like, we all get lots of spam, right? We all get lots of emails we're you're like, this is.

Siobhan:

Is this real?

Eddie:

You've not really got this kind of, I didn't really win $1,000,000 in this thing. Like, let's just send this straight to archive. And I was like, 'This isn't real'. So I just ignored it. And then a week later, the producer emailed me back again and was like, 'Did you get that email?' Oh no, this is a real person. Like, what an opportunity. I didn't go knocking on any doors for that, I just feel so grateful to have had that chance. And I went on that show and I danced like a dinosaur, with my heart out. So those are the kinds of opportunities which I feel grateful for, and I just want to take each step as they come.

Shannon:

Yeah, I'd love to talk a little bit more about your YouTube channel because you do have a real global audience. How does that sort of sit with you having such a reach far and wide?

Eddie:

To be perfectly frank, I find it hard to conceptualise in my head because yeah, it's more than a million subscribers. And like even as a person who works with numbers all the time, like, I can't even fully picture that. Like I teach at a school of 2,000 students, you don't ever get all 2,000 of those kids in one place at one time, except for when we do a fire drill, right? So it's like, okay, we're all evacuating onto the, there they all are. We don't even all fit into our school hall because there's too many of us. To then say like a million or more people, it's actually quite hard to fit in my brain. And I honestly, I most of the time, 99% of the time, I don't think about it. I'm convinced that part of the reason why my videos on YouTube have had any kind of traction is because the thing I'm thinking about, or rather the people I'm thinking about, are just these thirty kids in front of me. And I'm just.

Siobhan:

Sometimes what's good for one can be good for all in that sense.

Eddie:

100%. So I don't know Shannon, I think I kind of push it to the back of my mind. Every now and then I get a reminder of it. It's really delightful that I am, I'm not so well known that I can't, like, you know, go out for a jog and get embarrassed that I'm like, 'Wow, look at that sweaty guy running across there, is that Eddie Woo?'

Shannon:

Well maybe after the podcast episode, Eddie.

Siobhan:

Again, you haven't met our moms yet.

Eddie:

But at the same time, I am old enough that someone who has been able to enjoy my work and benefit from it from afar, you know, like, I'll just be in a pub in regional New South Wales visiting a school and having dinner that evening and someone will come up and be like, 'Are you that maths teacher guy? I watched your videos four years ago.' And I'm like that's a huge privilege. So I honestly don't think about it too much, but I'm delighted that it does get to have that.

Shannon:

Well, I'll give you a little story because during our learning from home period that we all went through over those rocky two years, I taught a stage three five/six class and we were, I was creating some videos for them. And when I had the wellbeing check in on, it was a Wednesday we used to do wellbeing check-ins on Microsoft Teams all together with my class and one of the boys in my class, he said, 'Wow Miss, you really reminded me of Eddie Woo, in your problem of the day', I used to do problem of the day for mathematics, 'video'. And he said to me, 'Do you think you'd start a YouTube channel like Eddie?'

Eddie:

That's very sweet.

Shannon:

I was likened to your content

Eddie:

What I love is that if you ask any of, like, my three children, like being likened to me, to them, would not be a compliment. And, you know, even my youngest son, he was like, 'Daddy, these kids at school said, I look like you'. And I'm like, 'Sorry, kid' like that's not, that's not a win. But I'm so delighted that that was obviously a plus for you. Especially for so many people in the younger generation, you know, being a YouTuber is like a thing to aspire to.

Shannon:

Oh it is so common when, you know, you speak to them about what they'd like to be when they grow up. And I always love having those conversations, it gives you such a good insight into their little personalities. But a lot of them say YouTubers, and the reality is that they are growing up looking up to YouTube sensations and it's sort of our new, it's our new way. So yeah, it's incredible to see the younger generation, you know, already watching mathematics videos, which made my heart very happy.

Siobhan:

And it's like it's, it is a form of mentorship because no doubt other teachers are looking at your content as well. So I think that you're having a lasting impact on the students, who can access to learning globally, but also to teachers as a form of professional development. And I think I mean, we've only got you for a couple more minutes, but I think that leads me to asking you a question in terms of mentorship. Have you had a powerful mentor who's sort of guided and directed you through your career that you'd like to reference mentor/mentees? Yeah.

Eddie:

The hardest part of this question for me is that I have too many to choose from, and I actually think maybe that's part of the lesson that I want to convey, that, look, life's too short to only learn from your own mistakes. You have to have the humility to learn from the wide range of experiences of all the people around you. And I still remember my tertiary supervisor, the person from uni who was looking after me when I was on placement as a student teacher. She said, 'You will learn something from every teacher that you interact with. You might learn it by counter-example, but if you've got your eyes open and you're respectful, and you pay attention, you will see things in every classroom that you're like that's amazing. I want to learn how to inhabit that myself, right?' This is really difficult to pick one out. But you know what? I think the place that I'm going to go is, I generally try not to embarrass people who are still in the profession because they're going to say, like they're going to encounter people, and it's like, 'Hey, you're still doing this right now', but I'm going to pick out someone who I'm cheating because he's just retired. So my principal for the last ten years, he was an enormously valuable mentor to me because I just learned so much. So much of who I am as a leader came from him. Both consciously saying, I want to be someone like him who's respected and who pays, pays respect also to the people who work under him that I never felt talked down to. I always felt like I had time from him, which is incredible. Like principals, I now reflect back on because I get to interact with lots of principals, I'm like, 'How do any of, how do any of you get any of your own work done?' Because you are constantly interrupted by people.

Shannon:

And supporting everyone else.

Eddie:

Yeah, exactly. And I'm thinking about him because it's not even consciously, but subconsciously, you know, the way that I ask questions of why I'm doing what I'm doing, how I know it's having impact, they come from him. So I'm so appreciative to the, the conscious and subconscious influences he's had on me as a leader. And I know that, like he's an English teacher. And so I know that as a maths teacher we often thought of each other as like he's, he was and is really great at picking apart data. And I characterise us as, he was an English teacher who loved a good number and I'm a maths teacher who loves a good word, so.

Shannon:

We love to hear that. Well, what a lengthy career he would have had. So really nice to hear about that. All right. I think that might be all we have time for today. Thank you so much for joining us on the TeachCast couch. We are very grateful. And I think you've covered a lot of wonderful aspects of teaching inside and outside the classroom that will, you know, sit with beginning teachers and future teachers minds and have them thinking along their career and inspire them. So thank you so much for joining us, Eddie and we'll see you all next time.

Eddie:

Thanks for having me.

Siobhan:

Bye.

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning into TeachCast, where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like and subscribe to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @teachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching and keep making a difference. TeachCast is a podcast by the Teach NSW team from the New South Wales Department of Education.